Sexism
Short interchange at work today:
Chris (Re Roy's face of stress): Roy, are you having a 'mare?
Enzo: You can't call Susannah a mare!
Me: I'm more worried about Roy 'having' me...
One of those things where it's kind of technically sexist but actually isn't.
On the other hand, a conversation with two other people in the office last week where they discussed me dressing up in a leather uniform and whipping people definitely was a bit further than I wanted it to go.
And yet none of that really bothers me beyond the kind of generic chauvinism it indicates in the society. Humour is just humour, after all, and if there's one thing my working environment is not, it's willing to pass up any cheap joke that offers. So of course it's sexist, as well as many other things. But not usually in a way that bothers me.
What bothers me is men who truly are seedy and just disturbing. I haven't met many of them at work but there are a couple. I wish they wouldn't talk to me...they don't need to be saying a single sexist thing and yet their attitude towards just makes me incredibly angry. Either them, or anyone with the assumption that women simply don't matter. In the canteen the other day:
Me: *wobbles chocolate machine slightly to try and get the Snickers I've just paid for to fall*
Guy-I-do-not-know: "Do you want a hand?" *comes over and goes to thump it*
Woman-behind-canteen: "No, don't do that, you'll break it"
Other-guy-I-do-not-know: "Ah, don't listen to her, she's a woman."
A lot of that was in tone of voice but I don't think I've ever been as annoyed at a casual piece of chauvinism.
I dunno. I am just a little confused why I find some stuff totally acceptable and others just not. There is a laughing with/at aspect in there but...I think it has to do with whether the guy saying it really truly believes it. If it sounds like he does then I am on the warpath from that point...
Anyway. What does a blog exist for if not to splat confused thoughts onto?
posted by skittledog @ 10:51 pm
18 comments
18 Comments:
I'm guessing the workplace is pretty male dominated where you are at, too?
Yup - definitely a fine line between harassment and flirting/teasing.
I'm glad I'm not a guy cause I'm sure I'd be totally confused about where the line was.
I tend not to push my luck, if my brain is in gear I tend to opt for caution when opening my mouth. I don't tend to make randon cracks to people I am not sure wont be offended.
In fact I can't recall making an overtly sexist remark since I was a snotty sixteen year old.
I think the first step is to always respect someone as a person.
I think it comes down to all those subtle signals people give off, you just know whether they are being jokey, or otherwise.
I'm not sure I make sense, but oh well, I'm just a guy after all ;)
Male dominated...yeah. I'm an engineer working at a railway depot. Pretty much...
And oh, I couldn't care less about where the line is. So long as people actually think there is a line...and that it's not just "mustn't swear in front of women"...I'm pretty much okay with them. It's the ones who wouldn't even think about there being a line, who automatically think of women as something less, that bother me.
And don't get me wrong, I dislike sexism from women to men too. But I don't hang around much with women and as I'm not a guy I couldn't really have much of an informed opinion on it.
Male dominated where I am but no sexism at all. Physicists have their minds on much higher things.
They smoke pot a lot?
I've had male friends who would edit themselves around me - i.e. not use the f-word cause i might be offended. That used to piss me off.
Humour is just humour, after all
Well, it's not. Humour is often a form of aggression, and if people were honest with themselves, they'd bloody well admit it. Being a German living in Britain, this is one of my favourite topics, especially when it comes to the grand statements of germans not having any sense of humour. Actually, the lack of humour is absolutely correct - if someone tries to shame/belittle/humiliate the average german under the guise of humour, they will be told to bug off. Just because you have dressed it up as humour doesn't mean it's funny. I had one of those little 'german humour failures' at work a while ago, when my boss told me I'm talking out of my arse. I was meant to react amused, but the fact was that we were having a discussion and I held an opinion opposite to his. Much was made of my reaction - I turned around and told him to not speak to me in that tone instead of laughing it off. Sod that, the fact that the phrase 'laughing it off' exists says a lot about how humour is used.
Anyway, I'm ranting now. In my opinion there is a big difference between fooling around with mates (with or without smutty undertones) and sexist comments dressed up as humourous. My rule of thumb for those things is: if you don't know how the person will react to it, save your jokes for latter. Following these rules, I will call one of my colleagues a honorary girl and suggest that he wears his hair in pigtails, while I would never question the masculinity of one of our more insecure members of staff.
Physicists all have degrees. It's a different environment. I can only think of one person at uni I could even vaguely accuse of being chauvinist, and he was just a prick in a whole lot of ways anyway.
What depresses me about it all is that so much of it seems to come from upbringing. If you grow up in a household where the women refuse to do anything practical and make sexist giggly jokes about men, you will likely come out with a very different perception of men/women than I have.
To biped...I agree that humour can hide worse things. But I'd rather it came out as humour than anything else. And honestly, even bad humour in a dull office helps the day go a bit quicker...
I work in an environment where nothing is safe from crude jokes, though. Not women, not our bosses, not foreigners, not suicides who have jumped in front of our trains and left bits of their ribcage in the engine air intake. If I took offence at everything like that I wouldn't have time to work.
Oh, and as to the language-censoring really pissing you off, Fed (you are Fed, yes?) - totally agree. Gah. So stupid.
Ah, I'd rather it not come out at all - we have a lot of bad humour in the office lately, and it is hell. And I'm not even the butt of any of it, so I should be able to shake it off.
I'm not sure whether a degree makes you less sexist, though. We have a handfull of woman in higher-up positions (translate: woman with 'proper' power, not the power to make a nice cuppa), and it is amazing how much vitriol is reserved for them. They are all pushy, demanding bitches if you listen to the reasonably well educated males at work. No such terms are applied to the 'normal' management, i.e. males. And I am working at a university, you can't get a much more pc work environment than that.
Education should broaden your horizon, but I think a lot of someone's attitude does stem from their upbringing. Perhaps we are all doomed.
Hmm, I wasn't saying a degree makes you less sexist. Or it wasn't what I was intending to say...but I do at least get the impression that men with a reasonable amount of education at least know they're not supposed to be sexist. Even if they still are. But they'll keep a bit quieter, at least...
But yeah, I had a conversation with two of the friendlier blokes at work on Friday about some of this stuff (cos it's been going round in my head a lot this week) and their opinions basically boiled down to "women cause a lot of the problems themselves by always having a chip on their shoulder about sexism." Which in some ways I half agree with, but...it was still a bit depressing to hear. If they all have chips on their shoulder about it, don't you think that might actually be because there is a problem there?
And somehow I wasn't reassured by "it's refreshing to meet a woman like you, who's more like a guy." Um.
Let's all heave a big sigh to upbringing...
Hmm, I guess if I had though about it I would have made this point: education doesn't necessarily reduce sexism, but it will change the ways in which sexist ideas are expressed. Instead of the plain old litany of sexists remarks, woman who won't stay in their allocated space are undermined in different ways. Pay is certainly one of those many ways, as is questioning a female colleagues competence.
As to the chip on the shoulder: some people really do carry a ginormeous chip around, and they are dead annoying with it. And to really bastardise a Gile's quote: Carrying a chip of sexual discrimination on ones shoulder is one of the unpleasant side effects of sexual discrimination. Full marks for linking that one back to the original quote (one of my favourite Gileisms)
Skit, most guys don't realise they are even saying things like that. Working in a similar environment as you, where more of the graduates joining us are female but where the majority of the staff are male, I'm aware of the issue, naturally.
I was involved in a case of sexual harrassment four years ago, where a male colleague had made several comments similar to what you have mentioned above.
The female colleague complained, and it resulted in a disiplinary hearing. As one of the group that had been there at the time, I was interviewed.
If it bothers you, take it up with your HR department. They will, or should, come down heavily on it.
Unfortunately (from the point of view of the issues) you're in an environment where you are far more likely to get sexist comments. Perhaps some people can't accept that there are women that can be as good an engineer as they are.
As for my own actions, I try to reduce my swearing any way, regardless of who is around me. I don't see the point of offending any one at work - you never know who they might be!
Generally, with people I know well there is a line that you know you can get away with, and the know you are only joking. The difficulty comes when people who don't know you and your humour that can be offended. That happened to me a while back on the board when I made a crack about the Americans - most of those present (including two Americans) knew I loved my time there and that it was fond dig, not an insult. Admitidly, it's not always easy to tell the difference.
Oh, and the Germans I know have got a great sense of humour (Biped included!). It tends to be very dry though, which I think a lot of Brits don't get.
I don't have an issue with it, and have certainly never been exposed to anything extreme enough for me to even consider disciplinary procedures. Most of the time I like it, to be honest, because it's fun to challenge it right back at them. Not to be all snotty and feminine and get upset by it, but to just turn it right back round on them and point out the flaws in their opinion.
I do like doing that sort of thing though. And don't make many friends by it...
As to swearing...I tend to join in. 'Running the bollocks off it' is just a good way of saying you're running an engine at high speed...
But yeah. None of that has anything to do with their opinion of my competence as an engineer just because I'm a woman. That, I've never had an issue with - and that would be what would be most likely to get to me, in terms of sexism, if it ever happened.
And damn you biped, I had to google Giles. I knew I knew it but couldn't remember what the hell he was talking about. But then for some reason I've only ever managed to watch Passion twice...
Call me Fed.
I have to agree that even university environments often label a successful woman as the SuperBitch. Very annoying.
On my bus route on the way to work, the male bus drivers and their passengers often dis the one female driver on the route.
(i.e. "I'm sorry for her husband." "She shouldn't be allowed to drive." Etc.)
There's still a lot of reason to be upset if you're a girl.
I agree with what everyone says... except skit. It kind of disturbs me how you accept sexist jokes just because they are intended to amuse not offend. You seem to think that you have to do that to get along with the guys. And maybe you do. And that disturbs me. Even jokes harm. They support attitudes that result in descrimination. I do hope that it dies out when the previous generation retires.
Hamid (our friendly local racist and part-time sexist) once told a sexist joke and this was reported (by a male colleague) to my supervisor who apologised to me. Seemed like overkill in a way but it showed to me that sexism in the workplace (well, my workplace) is somewhat unusual and shocking today and it gets remarked upon. Of course no one has actually managed to shut this guy up. And I guess no one will be able to. But at least everyone else knows it is wrong.
So that there are people telling sexist jokes in skit's workplace is absolutely no shock. That it is _accepted_ is a worry. And that skit accepts it disturbs me.
So what would you advise me to do instead?
In the case of the mild and inoffensive ones, I usually grin, raise eyebrows or give an amused-but-sarcastic look.
In the case of the truly offensive stuff (which is rare) I just keep quiet, look as little annoyed as I can manage and get away as soon as possible.
I dunno - I somehow feel like sharing sexist jokes with people (eg grinning at an 'if women ruled the world' joke where cars are sold by colour alone) is more likely to break down barriers than getting offended.
Or maybe I'm just putting grand words round what in essence is a bullying response. If you can laugh at yourself with the people who are laughing at you, you may look stupid but at least they don't get the pleasure of seeing you hurt.
...or something?
It can be a tough call. I worked at a place where there was some sexism, mostly not in my lab, but in my lab a couple of the guys were very fond of ribald humor, horsing around and listening to talk radio that I found offensive. I liked the ribald humor and the horsing around, I hated the radio show (Imus?). We discussed the radio, they had worked there many years longer than I had, they understood that I hated it, and would have stopped playing it if I insisted, instead we compromised in that I got to play my favorite radio station in the afternoon, which they didn't much like. And they got their awful "humor" show in the morning.
I have been fortunate to rarely be on the receiving end of direct harassment. But I have known others who were, and have helped some get through terrible situations.
Oddly, at my veterinarians office, the men are all very well behaved, and the women have a beefcake calendar hanging in the back by the microscopes and analytical machines.
If I were one of the guys, I might be offended.
All of this doesn’t address the hidden signs of discrimination in the workplace. I am one of the tougher professors in the department. I have often heard tough female profs referred to as bitches, while tough male profs are often admired for their high standards. I have also experienced that money thing. When I was hired I was told my salary wasn’t negotiable, and that I would get $1,000 to move with. So I took the salary and used the $1,000 to cover about a third of my moving expenses. A guy who was hired after me negotiated his salary and said $1,000 wasn’t enough, and the University gave more to him. This is common. A woman is told no and assumes it means no. A guy is told no, and he still agitates and often gets more. In the private sector a woman is often just offered less, assuming she will take less.
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